Geripal-podcast

“Anxiety is a lot like a toddler. It never stops talking, tells you you’re wrong about everything, and wakes you up at 3 a.m.”  I’m not sure who wrote this quote, but it feels right to me. We’ve all had anxiety, and probably all recognize that anxiety can be a force of action or growth but can also spiral to quickly take over our lives and our sleep. How, though, do we navigate anxiety and help our patients who may end up in the anxiety spiral that becomes so hard to get out of? On today’s podcast, we’ve invited Alex Gamble and Brianna Williamson to talk to us about anxiety. Alex is a triple-boarded (palliative care, internal medicine, and psychiatry) assistant professor of medicine at Stanford. Brianna is one of UCSF’s palliative care fellows who just completed her psychiatry residency. We start by defining anxiety (harder said than done), move on to talking about when it becomes maladaptive or pathologic, and how DSM5 fits into all of this. We then walk through how we should screen for anxiety and how we sh

I have to start with the song.  On our last podcast about urinary incontinence the song request was, “Let it go.”  This time around several suggestions were raised.  Eric suggested, “Even Flow,” by Pearl Jam.  Someone else suggested, “Under Pressure,” but we’ve done it already.  We settled on, “Oops…I did it again,” by Britney Spears. In some ways the song title captures part of the issue with urinary incontinence.  If only we lived in a world in which much of urinary incontinence was viewed as a natural part of aging, the normal response wasn’t embarrassment and shame, but rather an ordinary, “Oops…I did it again.”  And if only we lived in a world in which this issue, which affects half of older women and a third of older men, received the research and attention it deserves. We shouldn’t have therapeutic nihilism about those who seek treatment, yet urinary incontinence is woefully understudied relative to its frequency and impact, and as we talk about on the podcast, basic questions about urinary incontinen

I always find cachexia in serious illness puzzling. I feel like I recognize it when I see it, but I struggle to give a clear definition or provide effective ways to address it. In today's podcast, we had the opportunity to learn from a renowned expert in palliative care, Eduardo Bruera, about cachexia and anorexia in serious illness. Eduardo established one of the first palliative care programs in 1984, created the Edmonton Symptom Assessment Scale (ESAS), and significantly contributed to the evidence base for palliative care symptoms that many of us rely on daily. During our discussion with Eduardo, we delved into how we can define cachexia and anorexia, why they occur in conditions like cancer, how to assess for them, and explored the interventions that are helpful and those that are not in the treatment of these conditions.

As Eric notes at the end of today’s podcast, we talk about many difficult issues with our patients.  How long they might have to live. Their declining cognitive abilities. What makes their lives meaningful, brings them joy, a sense of purpose.  But one issue we’re not as good at discussing with our patients is sexual health. On today’s podcast Areej El-Jawahri, oncologist specializing in blood cancers at MGH, says that sexual health is one of the top if not the top issue among cancer survivors.  Clearly this issue is important to patients.  Sharon Bober, clinical psychologist at DFCI, notes that clinicians can get caught in an anxiety cycle, in which they are afraid to ask, don’t ask, then have increased anxiety about not asking.  Like any other conversation, you have to start, and through experience learn what language is comfortable for you.  Don Dizon, oncologist specializing in pelvic malignancies at Brown, suggests speaking in plain language, starting by normalizing sexual health issues, to paraphrase, “

The landscape of options for treating people with kidney failure is shifting.  It used to be that the “only” robust option in the US was dialysis.  You can listen to our prior podcast with Keren Ladin talking about patients who viewed dialysis as their only option, and structural issues that led to this point (including this takedown of for profit dialysis companies by John Oliver).  One of the problems was a lack of an alternative robust option to offer patients.  As one of our guests says, you have to offer them something viable as an alternative to dialysis. Today we interviewed Sam Gelfand, dually trained in nephrology and palliative care, Kate Sciacca, a nurse practitioner (fellowship trained in palliative care), and Josh Lakin, palliative care doc, who together with a social worker and other team members started KidneyPal at DFCI/BWH, a palliative care consult service for people with advanced kidney disease.  As a team, they provide a robust alternative to dialysis for patients with kidney failure: con

Who gets to decide on what it means to have a disease? I posed this question a while back in reference to Alzheimer's disease. I’ll save you from reading the article, but the main headline is that corporations are very much the “who” in who gets to define the nature of disease. They do this either through the invention of disease states or, more often, by redrawing the boundaries of what is considered a disease (think pre-diabetes). On today's podcast, we invite Adriane Fugh-Berman to discuss the influence of industry, whether it be pharma or device manufacturers, on healthcare. Adriane founded PharmedOut, a Georgetown University Medical Center project that “advances evidence-based prescribing and educates health care professionals and students about pharmaceutical and medical device marketing practices.” I’ve listened to a lot of Adriane’s talks. It is clear to me that she is not anti-medicine or even anti-pharma but is very much against both the visible and hidden influences that pharma and device manufact

On today’s podcast, we’ve invited four hospice and palliative care social media influencers (yes, that’s a thing!), all of whom focus their efforts on educating the general public about living and dying with a serious illness. Their work is pretty impressive in both reach (some of their posts are seen by millions of viewers) and breadth of work.  We’ve invited: Julie McFadden (aka Hospice Nurse Julie): Julie is a social media superstar, with 1.5 million subscribers on TikTok, another 400,000 subscribers on her YouTube channel, and another 350k followers on Instagram. She covers topics on death, dying, and hospice from a hospice nurse perspective, and she also has a book coming out called “Nothing to Fear: Demystifying Death to Live More Fully,” which is now available for pre-order.   Matt Tyler (aka Pallidad for those on Twitter): Matt is the Hospice and Palliative care doctor who created How To Train Your Doctor, which helps patients living with serious illness find tips on “owning” their healthcare plan

As Betty Ferrell says on our podcast today, nurses play an essential role in care of people with serious illness.  Who spends the most time with the patient in the infusion center? Doing home care? Hospice visits? In the ICU at the bedside?  Nurses. ELNEC (End-of-Life Nursing Education Consortium) celebrates it’s 25th anniversary in 2025.  We talk today with Betty Ferrell, who has been a nurse for 47 years, and is the founder and PI of ELNEC. As I argue on the podcast, ELNEC has likely done more to lift the primary palliative care skills of clinicians than any other initiative.  Full stop.  Some numbers to back it up: ELNEC has trained more than 48,000 providers in a train the trainer model Over 1.5 million clinicians have been educated in ELNEC  ELNEC curricula are integrated int 1180 undergraduate and 394 graduate Schools of Nursing ELNEC has been taught in over 100 countries Today we talk about the origin story of ELNEC, the special role of nurses in palliative care, empowering as well as educati

Eric asks the question that is on many of our minds - is the future of AI more Skynet from Terminator, in which AI takes over the world and drives humanity to the brink of extinction, or Wall-E, in which a benevolent and empathetic AI restores our humanity? Our guest today is Bob Wachter, Chair of Medicine at UCSF and author of the Digital Doctor: Hope, Hype, and Harm at the Dawn of Medicine’s Computer Age.  Bob recently wrote an essay in JAMA on AI and delivered a UCSF Grand Rounds on the same topic.  We discuss, among other things: Findings that in several studies AI was rated by patients as more empathetic than human clinicians (not less, that isn’t a typo). Turns my concern about lack of empathy from AI on its head - the AI may be more empathetic than clinicians, not less. Skepticism on the ability of predictive models to transform healthcare Consolidation of EHR’s into the hands of a very few companies, and potential for the drug and device industry to influence care delivery by tweaking AI in way

Ambivalence is a tough concept when it comes to decision-making. On the one hand, when people have ambivalence but haven't explored why they are ambivalent, they are prone to bad, value-incongruent decisions. On the other hand, acknowledging and exploring ambivalence may lead to better, more ethical, and less biased decisions. On today's podcast, Joshua Briscoe, Bryanna Moore, Jennifer Blumenthal-Barby, and Olubukunola Dwyer discuss the challenges of ambivalence and ways to address them. This podcast was initially sparked by Josh’s “Note From a Family Meeting” Substack post titled “Ambivalence in Clinical Decision-Making,” which discussed Bryanna’s and Jenny’s 2022 article titled “Two Minds, One Patient: Clearing up Confusion About Ambivalence." Bryanna’s and Jenny’s article is particularly unique as it discusses these “ambivalent-related phenomena” and that these different kinds of “ambivalence” may call for different approaches with patients, surrogates (and health care providers): In addition to defining

In 1983, a 25 year old Nancy Cruzan was thrown from her car while driving home in Missouri, landing in a water filled ditch. She was resuscitated by EMS, but did not regain higher brain function, and was eventually diagnosed as being in a persistent vegetative state.  In 1988, Cruzan’s parents requested that her feeding tube be removed, arguing that she would not want to continue in this state. The hospital refused without a court order, and the case eventually made its way to the Supreme Court. Arguing for the state of Missouri against the Cruzan’s was Ken Starr, who would later be assigned the role of special prosecutor in the investigation of the Clintons (Whitewater, Lewensky, etc). In 1990 the Supreme Court ruled…for the state of Missouri.  On the one hand, this was unfortunate, as it meant Nancy Cruzan could not be disconnected from the feeding tube immediately. On the other hand, the ruling allowed states to set their own evidentiary standards to refuse or withdraw life sustaining interventions.  Mis

One marker of the distance we’ve traveled in palliative care is the blossoming evidence base for the field. Ten years ago we would have been hard pressed to find 3 clinical trial abstracts submitted to the annual meeting, much less high quality randomized trials with robust measures, sample sizes, and analytics plans.  Well, as a kick off to this year’s first in-person State of the Science plenary, held in conjunction with the closing Saturday session of the AAHPM/HPNA Annual Assembly, 3 randomized clinical trials were presented. Today we interview the authors of these 3 abstracts about their findings: Tom LeBlanc about a multisite trial of palliative care for patients undergoing Stem Cell Transplant for blood cancers (outcomes = quality of life, depression, anxiety) Kate Courtright about a pragmatic trial of electronic nudges to prognosticate and/or offer comfort-focused treatment to mechanically ventilated ICU patients/surrogates (outcomes = lengths of stay, hospice, time to discontinuation of life-supp

What is frailty? Kate Callahan relates a clear metaphor on today’s podcast.  A frail person is like an origami boat: fine in still water, but can’t withstand a breeze, or waves.  Fundamentally, frailty is about vulnerability to stress. In 2021 we talked with Linda Fried about phenotypic frailty.  Today we talk with Kate Callahan, Ariela Orkaby, & Dae Kim about deficit accumulation frailty.  What is the difference, you ask?  George Kushel probably explained it best in graphical terms (in JAGS), using the iconic golden gate bridge as a metaphor (Eric and I get to see the bridge daily driving or biking in to work). Phoenotypic frailty is like the main orange towers and thick orange support cables that run between towers.  Damage to those critical functions and the bridge can collapse.  Deficit accumulation frailty is like the hundreds of smaller vertical cables that connect the thick orange support cables to the bridge itself. Miss a few and you might be OK.  But miss a bunch and things fall apart.  Resilie

Almost a decade ago, our hospice and palliative care team decided to do a “Thickened Liquid Challenge.”  This simple challenge was focused on putting ourselves in the shoes of our patients with dysphagia who are prescribed thickened liquids.  The rules of the challenge were simple: fluids must be thickened to “honey consistency” using a beverage thickener for a 12-hour contiguous period. All of us failed the challenge. We then decided to challenge others and asked them to post their videos online using the hashtag #thickenedliquidchallenge.  Here are some of the results of those videos: https://geripal.org/the-thickened-liquid-challenge/ On today’s podcast, we revisit dysphagia and thickened liquids with two researchers and speech-language pathologists, Raele Donetha Robison and Nicole Rogus-Pulia.  We talk with them about the epidemiology, assessment, and management of dysphagia, including the role of modifying the consistency of food and liquids, feeding tubes, and the role of dysphagia rehabilitation like

In the last several years, I’ve seen more and more articles about end-of-life doulas (like this NY Times article from 2021). Despite this, in my 20-year career as a palliative care physician, I have yet to see a death doula in the wild. I’m unsure what they do, how often they’re used, and who pays for their work. So, on today’s podcast, we try to get to the bottom of what exactly is an end-of-life doula. We’ve invited two death doulas, Jane Euler and John Loughnane (who is also a family doc and palliative care physician), to talk about the role of a doula at the end of life.  We also invited Beth Klint to speak about the doula's role within a traditional hospice organization. Why Beth?  In addition to being a palliative and hospice RN, she is the Executive Director for Goodwin Hospice, a large non-profit hospice that added end-of-life doula care to their services in collaboration with Jane and John’s doula organization, Present for You. If you are interested in learning more about death doulas, check out the

Today we celebrate eight years, around 2 million listens, and 300 podcasts!    Eric and I take questions from you, our listeners, about: why we podcast, our most controversial podcast, which podcast changed our practice, favorite song request, should all nursing home residents complete the POLST, expanding access to durable medical equipment, palliative care in rural regions, do we have an advance directive, what we’d do to improve healthcare with 7 trillion dollars, treatment for poor appetite, and Eric on how to make a latte.  Thank you to Lynn Flint and Anne Kelly who serve as hosts for this episode, asking us the tough questions. We answer your questions hot ones style.  I borrowed some screaming hot sauces from my friends Jerome Kim and Tony Le, and added them to my small collection of extra mild sauces.  Every two questions we ate a chicken wing covered in hot sauce. The hot sauces progressed from mild to extreme (and I mean extreme) heat. Can I just say…it works?  Being asked a question with your mouth

In our podcast with palliative care pioneer Susan Block, she identified the psychological/psychiatric aspects of palliative care as the biggest are of need for improvement.  As she said, when you think about the hardest patients you’ve cared for, in nearly all cases there was some aspect of psychological illness involved.  That rings true to me. Today we talk with two psychologists who are deeply invested in addressing psychological aspects of care for people living with serious illness. Elissa Kozlov, a geropsychologist and director of a new population aging MPH at Rutgers, surveyed AAHPM members, and found that doctors reported major shortcomings in level of comfort and knowledge caring for patients with psychological illness. She conducted a systematic review and meta-analysis of 38 palliative care trials, finding that many excluded people with serious illness, and a lack of impact on psychological outcomes.  Analyzing the Health and Retirement Study, she found 60% of older adults screened positive for de

We've talked about Falls a couple of times on this podcast, most recently with Tom Gill about the STRIDE study and before that with Sarah Szanton about the CAPABLE study.  A takeaway from those podcasts is that fresh innovative thinking in the falls prevention space is welcome. Today we talk with the twin sister power duo of Carmen Quatman and Katie Quatman-Yates about an intervention that is both brilliant and (in retrospect) should have been obvious.  The insight started when Carmen, an orthopedic surgeon-researcher, and Katie, a physical therapist- researcher participated in ride-alongs with EMS providers to patient’s homes.   They were stunned by the number of calls for lift assistance for older adults who had fallen. Going into patient's homes was eye opening. There were trip hazards, loose carpets, some people were hoarders. And yet, after assisting the older adult to their feet, the EMS providers would leave. Their job was done. It's not surprising that the number of repeat calls for falls is alarmingl

In 1982 Eric Cassell published his landmark essay: On the Nature of Suffering and the Goals of Medicine.  Though his narrow definition of suffering as injured or threatened personhood has been critiqued, the central concept was a motivating force for many of us to enter the fields of geriatrics and palliative care, Eric and I included. Today we talk about suffering in the many forms we encounter in palliative care.  Our guests are BJ Miller, palliative care physician and c-founder of Mettle Health, and Naomi Saks, chaplain at UCSF.  We discuss: How to respond when a nurse or trainee says, “I think this patient is suffering,” but the family does not share that perception The trap in comparing one person’s suffering to another person’s suffering How to respond to suffering, from naming to rebirth Ways in which suffering can bring meaning and purpose, or at the very least co-exist alongside growth and transformation The extent to which elimination of suffering ought to be a goal of palliative medicine

Last week we talked about a trial of a nurse and social worker outpatient palliative care intervention published in JAMA.  This week, we talk about the other major palliative care trial of default palliative care consults for hospitalized older adults with COPD, kidney disease, or dementia, published in the same issue of JAMA. (See also our accompanying editorial, first author Ashwin Kotwal who joins today as a co-host, and a podcast I recorded with JAMA editor Preeti Malani). For context, listen to the prior podcast with Scott on “nudges” and prior podcast with Kate on who should get palliative care. Three things I love about this podcast, and why you should listen.  First, in our editorial, we expressed concern about the length of stay metric not being patient centric, though important for health systems focused on cost savings.  It was refreshing to hear Scott and Kate express similar sentiments.  Second, we wanted to know how the palliative care clinicians felt about the increased workload - and we had